Hi guys,
I’ve been thinking about this one for some time. Why is being spiritual important? Why is God, by any name, important to some people, ignored by some, and denied by others? How do we benefit from having spiritual beliefs – in things like Spirit, angels, elementals, love, hope, faith, peace, or charity… to name a few? Why is forgiveness important to a spiritual person?
Wishing everyone Love & Peace Ama Nazra
35 replies on “Why is Spirituality Important?”
Ooooooooo! A great question, Ama.
Most importantly, worship of a divine spirit is a way to teach the masses morals, good social behaviour and self respect. It stops us from thinking that we are the most important thing, rather we are taught (hopefully) that others are as important as ourselves.
On a darker note, it is also a way of controlling the masses by threats of eternal damnation if we do not bow to someones will. Wars over land or privilage in the name of God or religion (various) have been going on since the dawn of time. If you put the fear of God (or equivalent) into someone, they are more likely to do something horrible in It’s name than in the name of the earthly leader. In its darker context, faith / religion has been used as a way to keep the masses subservant.
Why do some follow a belief sytem, whilst others don’t? Simple; most humans are ‘sheep’. They need to be lead to a ‘greener pasture’ (spiritual fullfillment) as they can not/don’t want to work it out for themselves. This is why so many blindly follow a specific religion, or even die for it.
Why do some not believe in a divine spirit? They don’t need to because they will happily be accountable for themselves and their own actions rather than transfering that accountability to the divine source – for praise or blame. Many a time I have heard the phrase; It’s Divine will (even amongsts the New Age set … actually, they’re the worst because they won’t take any responsibility for themselves at all, rather they will consult some kind of oracle divise before even getting up in the morning! (my dads new girlfriend a case in point.) Then, if it all goes horribly wrong they can simply blame something else, rather than themselves.
How do we benefit from spiritual beliefs? Personally, it helps remind me of my humble mortality and the comfort that there is purpose to that mortality. No matter how small the difference I make whilst I’m down here, if it is a difference for the better then my life has been worth while.
It also comforts me to believe that my existance does not end with physical death, rather there is a great love awaiting my return after physical death. I suppose that is why forgiveness is such a powerful positive for any person to make. In forgiveness we are showing love towards another, rather than hatred. Of course, that doesn’t mean we won’t forget any wrong-doing against us, but to forgive – truly forgive – does make one feel very warm and calm inside.
I could go on about this for hours … but I won’t bore the pants off of everyone. LOL! (Besides, got to go cook tea now – hahaha!)
AJ
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Hey AJ,
Do you actually deliberately choose to worship any divine spirits in particular? I looked up the meaning of the word ‘worship’ and found this really great explanation:
xenos.org/essays/worship.htm. It’s definitely worth reading.
The summary of the page is: “As long as we are culturally bound to the unfortunate English word, ‘worship,’ we need to keep our understanding biblical rather than anchored in church traditions. A worshipper must be a humble person who is willing to:
* Subordinate their goals to God’s goals by prioritizing service toward the Kingdom of God;
* Express gratitude and praise toward God and
* Tell others about God, his truths and the love they have enjoyed as His child.
When I think of many church sermons I have sat through, its mostly been more about ‘God going to get us’ if we don’t behave in ways that suit the church. There’s never much mention of Love, unconditional or otherwise.
I don’t find a lot of people who will ‘stand up’ for Spirit by any name .. except when they are reading ‘channelled’ messages, to qualify who it has come from, if they can. I can’t think of one spiritualist church I have visited over the years that asks anyone to honour a God of any form. Mostly they talk about multidimenionalism, or the coming ‘ascension’, or ‘lightbodies’ or whatever (sometimes very valid and other times pure nonsense). The people who frequent these places often call themselves spiritual without knowing what the word actually means. They don’t honour, worship or venerate anything, or anyone. Their spiritual practices are as limited, in many cases, as church folk who only remember God on sunday.
I am not speaking about everyone but the word spiritual is fast becoming as overused as Christian, and has just as little meaning, when a person is asked to sacrifice something to follow ‘God’ (which God?) and they don’t want to.
One comment I noticed on that webpage was about the mistaken belief that to be a good Christian you had to be prepared to martyr yourself for God (Paul’s comment). Actually, the Muslims do that. The last Christian who tried to martyr other people, mostly young ones, was prepared to be martyred (death penality) for his faith .. only the powers that be locked him up instead. They see him as criminally insane. He’s one of the ‘new’ Templar Knights?
So perhaps my question should have been “What does it mean to each of us when we say we are ‘spiritual”?
Love & Peace
Ama
Hi Ama
I look to God (or the God source, or Holy Spirit if you prefer to describe It that way) but refrain from worshiping any idol or demi-god as a ‘channel’ in order to get to the God Source – idols such as; Jesus, angels, Mohammed, Buddha, just as some quick examples. To me, they are but a part of the Whole (the Whole being God Itself) so why assume any of them to be equal to God?
I have this strange concept of God. To me It is not the spiritual image of a white-bearded man sitting on a cloud. Instead it is everything, all rolled into one to make One. (Hard to explain first thing in the morning, before I’ve had a strong coffee – LOL). But, lets just say I see each angel as the singular in equal measure to the other angels … each represent a single aspect or part of the Whole (God). It is the energy of all the angels gathered together that mades the Whole, or God, ever present. Or, as I like to think of it; God is the name of the corporation and the angels are the corporations CEO’s. LOL!
Off for a strong coffee …
AJ
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Hi again, Ama
Quote from Ama: When I think of many church sermons I have sat through, its mostly been more about ‘God going to get us’ if we don’t behave in ways that suit the church. There’s never much mention of Love, unconditional or otherwise.
It’s ironic isn’t it, that Jesus and most of (but not all) the NT is filled with Gods love and plenty of examples of how to apply it in our own lives. Yet the Christian teaching focus’s more on hate than love, and punishment rather than reward. Have we really learned nothing from what Jesus was trying to teach us all?? Personally, I think Gods Wrath (Rogziel) should remain with the Judaic interpretation of God, with Christian’s focusing more on the positives as Jesus did, rather than on an angel of punishment.
AJ
x
I agree with you AJ, I think people should focus on Jesus’ words and not other people’s interpretation of them. Mind you, what are Jesus’ words? He is said to have never written anything at all (it was an oral culture and his followers were generally considered illiterate). Paul is a good case. He never actually met Jesus in person, though he is said to have had a vision. Theologians originally thought he wrote volumes, but with careful research it has been proved that a large percentage of his ‘words’ have only been ‘ascribed’ to him, rather than written by him. Letters like Peter 2 cannot be proved to be actually written by Peter (it might have happened in the late 60’sCE, or it could have been between 100-150CE). It’s the same with Revelation .. who was the ‘John’ who wrote it? It is only ascribed to someone that scholars thought was the ‘beloved disciple’ .. but then the beloved disciple could be Mary Magdalene instead. Did she write Rev? 😉
I should really research how much of the NT would be left if we removed everything we cannot guarantee the authors for? But to do that we would have to have the original documents .. and we don’t even have them .. yet.
I don’t believe Jesus’ God had an angel of wrath. It’s just totally out of character. I do, however, believe the ‘god’ of the OT, who spent such a lot of time punishing people when it got annoyed, would have one. Angels are not filled with hate, and divine love (unconditional) does not kill. The concepts cancel themselves out.
What Jesus was teaching, I believe, were lessons in personal responsibility. He asked us to think of others before doing harm, or passing on opinions, or emotional reactions, that come from fear and pain. It’s not easy when a person wants to lash out, its far easier just to react. Self control takes control, courage, strength and determination. Acts of love and kindness do not pay well. Turning the other cheek means you’ll probably get slapped. He certainly did. He died for his beliefs .. how many people, when they are raised to fear death, and God’s judgment, actually want to die? Even for a cause? The reality is its harder work to be good than evil .. and humans generally take the easier path.
And then there is the church’s desire to have followers to keep their coffers filled. Churches cannot exist if people abandon them, as people are doing these days in droves .. and yet we still seek a ‘god’ of some kind, an example of ‘good’, or even one of evil, if a person is inclined that way. We want to have a being that is greater than us, that will bestow gifts upon us, one way or another. Whether from greed or love, we are seeking recognition of our worth from something bigger, stronger, wiser, more magical .. than us. It makes us feel important to be noticed.
To me an example of that is the prayer of Humble Accession 1648-49 –
“We do not presume to come to this thy Table (O merciful Lord) trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold and great mercies. We be not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under thy Table….” (the rest of the quote makes Christians sound like cannibals to those who don’t know about the symbolism)
It’s a puzzle to me after seeing what Jehovah did to Job, Saul, David and others, that we would expect ‘him’ to be merciful? Or were we seeking God to get ‘him’ to deny that we are ‘not worthy’, to tell us he’ll talk to us anytime, and give us what we want?
We are called the Children of God .. and the title is still suitable today. We are still children. I wonder if we will ever grow up. Oh right .. growing up means accepting spiritual responsibility for our whole lives .. does that take away all our fun?
Love & Peace
Ama (more soapbox .. LOL)
Hi AJ,
God is all things to me too. That killed the concept of the Trinity for me. God becomes what each person needs it to be. For some it would be the old man (santa?), or for others it might be a child .. that was what I saw in my vision.
I also agree with you about the angels, although I see each angel as equal within its group (puts an end to the concept of archangels for me), and each group equal with each other, simply having different roles to play. They are all created from the energy of God/Holy Spirit, as are we.
Fascinating. Thank you.
Love & Peace
Ama
Funny what you say about the Archangels, Ama, because I don’t believe in an angelic hierarchy either. That, to me, is a very human thought. But, main groups and sub-groups (although still a human concept), is a good way to catagorise them to help us understand God better.
I am going to start a new topic about Angels Of Punishment, specifically Kushiel, not Rogziel, but it is the result of a very interesting and enlightening conversation I had with a friend the other evening. I think it would make a great topic to discuss and see what other folk think!
AJ
x
Yes please AJ, it sounds interesting!
Love & Peace
Ama
I think, for some, Spirituality gives meaning to people’s lives. It, in a way, helps us “cope” with life. To believe that there is a higher power gives to some, a purpose to their existence. We also, all want an answer as to where we go when we die. Do we just Stop existing? Or do we continue on in a different plane of existence? What is our reason for living in a physical world? Are we here to learn? How did we come to be? For some, Spirituality is very important in finding the answers to these questions. In many cultures and in many parts of the world, spirituality and religion are very much a part of human existence as well as throughout history. I think, we, as humans seek answers to questions and for a good number of the world’s population, Spirituality and religion holds the key to the answers. Great Question, Ama!! 😀
Good morning Luna,
You have brought up some interesting thoughts, as usual.
Here’s a question. How does your belief in a divine being bring meaning into your life? What creed do you follow?
I personally don’t find the answers to your questions in the Christian one, though I am Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ etc, as you know. The answers are available in other beliefs, such as Spiritualism, though I think their language is archaic .. the ‘brotherhood of man’ (the family of humanity?)
The Christian belief teaches us that when we die we must be buried (not cremated) and lie in the ground awaiting a God of judgment, and his terrifying ‘son’. The thought arises that Jesus was not terrifying when he was alive, apart from a flash of temper or two, and that he taught us to love one another and not judge, so why the big change? When ‘He’ returns those who are good enough will get into heaven, but to be good enough we have to obey every ‘commandment’ absolutely, and I can think of a number of places I fall down. And then I think of the people who were abused by the parents they are supposed to ‘honour’, as an example of people who, under the current belief system, won’t be getting into heaven. IMO, there should have been a commandment about the parents honouring the children as well, maybe that would have helped? And then there are the priests who pretend to be Christian while practicing perversions in private? Surely they know they are bound for hell, but do it anyway .. how is that honouring anything except hypocrisy?
So I, like so many other people who call themselves Spiritual, try to create a belief system that makes sense and allows me to be a better person, towards everyone, including myself. The problem is that we tend to forget ourselves in our spiritual practises, usually because there is a very hard judge in the back of our minds that tells us we will never be good enough … or worse, there is someone right in front of us saying that too. But who set them up as judge?
The biggest problem with the NT (crossing to AJ’s current answer), for me, is Revelation, which was written long after Jesus was dead, by someone who never met him. According to my theology study, it was written in response to the persecution of the Christians by Nero. The writer wanted to put the fear of God into Nero and his followers, and bolster the courage of the Christians, particularly those being martyred for their faith .. in saying that Nero was the devil and he would be severely punished by God and Jesus. I think we can understand why someone would choose to write something like this. What I don’t understand is why the church is still using it to try and frightened people into better behaviour these days? Revelation denies the love of God for everyone, because human beings have never been as perfect as those who the 10 commandments were written for. Wait a minute – Moses brought them down from the mountain twice (I want to know what was on the first set of commandments), to try and change people for the better, so those people were definitely not perfect either? Well, in 20000 years we are still breaking all of the commandments. So under the Christian belief system, heaven is going to be very empty.
You know, we could use a ‘second coming’ just to prove to everyone who lives in fear of God, that God loves us very much. That he ‘gave his only son’ as a perfect sacrifice for all the trouble we (humanity) had got itself into. Problem is, IMO someone would probably try and crucify Jesus again. My God is the quiet one, who waits and watches, who gently encourages and reminds me that I am learning to be a good person, and that voice of ego in my mind, is my creation, not His/Hers. When I go Home (heaven) again I will be met with Love, the way I remember it has always been. God loves. Why can’t we?
Love & Peace
Ama
Ama,
i was born and raised Catholic, but if you ask me now, I would say that I belong to no religious denomination. I call myself Spiritual, because I believe in God and I do believe in Christ, but there isn’t one church that encompasses ALL of my beliefs. As you said, many religions have bits and pieces of the beliefs that we have but not one contains all of them. I have a saying, “Religions are like different roads all leading to the same place.” basically, what I mean by that is that it doesn’t matter what road you chose, in some way, you are going to find God. Even a Buddhist can find God in the teachings of Buddha. Buddha teaches us to connect to a higher self, as I like to call it, our God center. So in a way, it is helping us to connect to God. Do I think there is one “right” religion? No, I do not. For me, as long as it does no harm and brings someone peace in their life, then I am fine with it and respect that person’s choice.
How does a belief in a divine being bring meaning to my life? Well, I find it gives me a purpose to my life and makes me at peace with my life. I know where I go when I die, I know that I am protected and unconditionally loved, and am proud to say that I have felt that Love. I find peace in knowing that God loves all of His/Her creations with out judgement and with acceptance. Through my faith and belief in God/Spirit/A Higher Power I am able to weather the storms of life and actually find strength within myself to get through those times and through my spirituality I have been able to see my life with a whole new perspective and I appreciate the little things in life. I try to live my life in a more forgiving way, as best I can(still being human!)and I understand more clearly that Peace and Love are the ultimate goals that we humans need to strive for. Some may argue that concept, but I have found myself to be more at peace and more at ease with my self and my place in life when I try to strive toward those goals.
What a lovely answer, Luna. Thank you.
I was thinking about this question for myself before I saw the way you explained it so well. I couldn’t put it into words.
I am ‘God’ centred, but not religious. I am a theologian, but I spend more time taking the bible apart than I do seeing God in it. I see people’s beliefs, their fears, their desires there, but its not a book of ‘God’s word’, for we only find God through what Jesus tells us about him/her (and only that ‘secondhand’ through the memories of people who wrote at least 20 years (and far longer) after he died), and Jesus was a man, he had to be, by Christian understanding, or his death on the cross could not have done what it did for us. That he was also Christ is often under dispute, that belief comes down to faith.
Being spiritual, to me, means that I try to uphold a set of ethics and moral behaviour that says “I will do no harm”. That fits well with the Wiccan Rede “Do what you will if it do no harm” (my translation).
This is a very interesting webpage. (http://)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_Rede It explains that the concept of acting from love, but still doing what you want, reaches back even to the bible.
Like you, I know I am loved and trusted, and this supports me constantly, and gives my life true meaning. The angels trust me, so I can trust myself, and share that trust with others. It’s huge issue in this modern age.
I think we are all very lucky to live in these ‘interesting’ times, although the trials can often seem endless. There is so much good around us, if we look for it .. and perhaps the lesson is in finding it?
Love & Peace
Ama
You’re right, Ama; it is a very huge issue in these times. I try hard, as you do, to look for the good in this world, and I do find it, but it’s like mining for gold, sometimes. LOL!! So many people are so self absorbed and self centered and worry about doing good for their fellow man without knowing what’s in it for them. But, I feel, that those of us, like you Ama, myself, AJ, and many others, must try to be beacons of hope, so to speak. We have the gift of spiritual enlightenment and therefor we must be the ones to spread Love and Peace in hopes of awakening the Light of God that shines in all of humanity. So many have put a basket on that light, as Jesus has said. I was reminded of that parable in reading this thread on Spirituality. When we let selfishness, fear, anger, greed and despair seep into our lives, we are putting a basket over our own Light and not letting it shine through. It is truly in the kindest and most selfless acts that our light really shines. On another thread, as you know, Ama, I performed a selfless act by rescuing a boy from becoming a lost soul. I expected nothing in return for that act, but received a kindness in return for that deed. I felt that, knowing that the boy was safe in the hands of the angels, was my reward. In turn,I was showed another human being who expected nothing in return from me, someone else who chose not to put a basket over her light. It doesn’t even really need to be a person who is spiritually enlightened; it just has to be a soul with a kind heart. We can all do that.
Yes we can, Luna. But the hard part, for some people, is continuing to think of others before themselves, not in a way that martyrs us, but in a way that the giving restores both the giver and receiver. We always have to watch our attitude, our ego, in other words. “Giving until it hurts” can end up hurting everyone. We need to learn ‘balance’, and when to say no. That’s also a life lesson, IMO.
It is hope that has gone out of the world. Tim we brought it back in again.
Love & Peace
Ama
Honestly, I can’t get over the semantics here.
(BTW: Loving this topic, Ama!
And I don’t think I would be able to explain it any better then you, A.J. and Luna….)
But, in my very humble opinion, everyone is spiritual to some degree. They may not even know it. Now, realize I’m being terribly literal here, but I think the question depends a lot on what you are trying to find out.
Text book “spirituality” is defined as “something of the clergy”…..something belonging to the church. Alternate definition: it’s the quality or state of being “spiritual”….which is where I see the definition change a lot! Because “spiritual” is a lot more specific. It defines actions consisting of/affected by the “spirit”.
In this way, the definition seems to span personal spirit, church, law and the “churches spirit”???? 🙂
If we are talking about the church, then I don’t believe I’m very spiritual at all. If we are talking about my spirit, then yes, I’m very spiritual. Because I regard the affects of “X” against my own spirit quite regularly. So I admit, sometimes I think of “spirituality” as “spirit awareness”.
And another busy day….so, I hope to get more time to add a better comment later (as I didn’t get to respond to everything from above). I just had to be a jerk and talk about the word itself, first. 🙂
-Siddle
I don’t see the jerk, Siddle. I see the a word that has such a depth of meaning, and such a diverse meaning, that it confuses people.
By saying that everyone is spiritual, are you saying that everyone believes in something they can’t see, or honours (worships) it? I know a number of athiests who would argue with you .. hehe .. only they ‘honour’ their athieism with great intensity too. LOL You may well be right. 🙂
I wrote a little article the other day for a newsletter I have just recreated about the various uses of the word ‘spirit’.
A quick copy/paste ..
What is ‘spirit’? I have four different meanings. The most obvious one for someone who is hassled by the unseen is a ghost. The next is the Holy Spirit. The third is my enthusiasm, also called spirit (eg a ‘spirited horse’) and the last is the alcohol some people use to give themselves some peace. I am not an advocate of drowning one’s sorrows, better to confront them, and release them, and learn to be happy again. So when someone comes to me and says “spirit told me to tell you ..”, I usually ask ‘which spirit’, because I am never really sure. 🙂
Spirit is the generic name given to all invisible beings, including us .. for when we die and cross over into heaven, we return to Source (or the Creator in some form) and we become ‘spirit’ again. What are we if we don’t choose to do this but are still dead? We are a ghost, and a problem. Let’s add to the confusion, because I just thought of numbers five and six in the use of ‘spirit’. Some Christian people call demons ‘spirits’, and then there are the elementals, also known as nature spirits.” (ends)
I think you could understand why church folk think that spiritual people worship things other than God. 1) they are programmed to believe worship is vital, therefore everyone must do it, and 2) since only their God is THE God, we are obviously all worshipping the opposite of God? And even in the modern version of the church the followers can be just as intense as in the old days.
Spirituality is about my relationship with whichever God I choose to honour. Being Christian mine is EL .. but I still just call it God. The Muslim people worship Allah, which is their name for God. The Buddhists honour Buddha, not as a God, but certainly a very wise man. They do not have gods in their belief system. Maybe that’s a good thing .. because no one has been killed in the name of Buddha, and we can’t say that about the Christian or Muslim God?
The comment about being affected by the spirit amuses me. Which spirit? The succubus someone is writing me about at the moment? The lady who honours the incubus she has sex with regularly, and doesn’t want to give up because it makes her feel powerful, even when its savagely punishing her for no particular reason? Some people worship angels, which actually horrifies the angels “All honour to Abba (not the music band, their name for God), Ama”. Some venerate a whole collection of different ‘gods’ who do different things for them, or not. When it comes down to brass tacks, if these beliefs help them to be better, more loving, more conscientious human beings, who take care of other people and have peace within themselves, why is this a problem? Society is already fragmenting itself, and the intense belief that there can only be one deity and we must all worship it has led to more deaths, more hatred, more fear .. both inside the churches (we are taught to fear God) and because of it, than if everyone was left alone to get on with their own way of viewing the Creator energy (or non creator energy .. buddhist version).
I had a stall at a market in town here on Saturday. I had a small sign up “Ama Nazra, Readings $20 for 20 minutes”. On it I listed my qualifications “Holistic & Spiritual Counsellor, Reiki Master Teacher, Spiritual & Metaphysical Teacher” and the words ‘what does the future hold? Who are your guides and angels? What past lives have you had?” .. given the reaction of many of the people in the small group that visited the market that day, I might have written “I have two heads and work with the devil”. The ‘double-takes’ were wonderful, so were the three different people who stopped long enough to have a chat .. 🙂
And sadly there are people who would never touch being ‘spiritual’ in any form, without knowing why. They have been frightened away from God by the fears, beliefs and actions of people around them, without even asking if it was what they wanted to do. They simply do not think about it. Being a God person, I want everyone to know the joy and peace I have found through my connection, but I am not about to try and force it down their throat .. doesn’t mean I don’t ask their angels for help though. LOL
Yes please, Siddle, more comments. We miss you when you are not around.
Love & Peace
Ama
I was raised Catholic but the trinity never made sense to me.
and up untill I was 8 I had some visits nightly from evil spirits and or nightmares if you will . These nightly visits didn’t stop till I started praying at age 8 not really in the way Catholics do , to God not only as God but, as my best friend. So ,as my best friend I was talking to God one night at age 8 and I was talking about my day and how I walked in the woods climbed a tree , things I knew that God already knew but I had to say anyway ,when I stopped what I was saying
then I said “God all the grownups say that you hear every thing so, why should I pray to Jesus why don’t I just pray to you.
That was many years ago and many things happened sense then near death episode to name one. Now I am Muslim not mainstream Sufi and still believe in God (Allah ) as my best friend and even as I was little and same as now I always feel him with me .In Islam we believe that God is closer to you than your own juggler vain
Maryam
Hello Maryam,
The trinity makes no sense to me either. Take God, divide into three bits .. one remains God, one becomes his ‘son’, the other his spirit, but they are all still ‘one’ being, except that they are three beings? Way too complicated for what I know about God, just to start with – and anything complicated, I have been taught, is a human invention.
I love the Islamic principle of God being closer than your jugular vein .. the way I see it, God is within each of us, in our hearts, and when we stop refusing to see that, we open our lives to a whole lot of wonderful experiences.
I go direct to Source when I pray too. Jesus is lovely, but he also prayed direct .. and he taught ‘do what I do’. It was only his followers who taught us to pray to him instead.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope your NDE was a pleasant one.
Love & Peace
Ama
Hello Ama
Spirituality is the pathway which human can move on it toward his perfect creator. The life without God is losing the way and the man who lives far away of him is like one who has jailed his soul in a horrible materially prison. A dark and cold prison which get not in it the light and warmth of the sun.spirituality is like a key for this prison door in order that we get out of this darkness and horror to the space of light and beauties.
Hello Manss, 🙂
I think separation from God is a very lonely and empty place, but many people don’t see it that way. I wonder if that is why the ‘born again Christians’ are so ‘intense’ when they first allow themselves to feel God back in their lives. Do the new Muslims feel that way too? Do you have groups that get that intense? Some of ours can go just slightly nuts over it .. and spend too much time trying to convince non-believers that ‘their’ way is the only way. sigh.
Love & Peace
Ama
The resuscitating will happen afterlife and in doomsday so it seems unbelievable that a human is born again in this world as a baby and then God inspires him a particular opinion. This is unlike the free will of human and his free choice because thus, God has interfered in humans will. It seems the real opinion is that we will revive afterlife and every human will be responsible against what he has chosen and what he has done because of his wisdom existence.
No, no, sorry Mans .. to be ‘born again’ is a choice a person makes (not God) as an adult, or teenager. The whole phrase is something like ‘born again to the Spirit’ (Holy Spirit), in other words either accepting Jesus/God into their lives for the first time, or as an ‘adult’ choice made by themselves alone, even if their parents were Christian to start with and had them baptised when they were tiny babies. They might have left all relligion behind while growing up, we call them ‘lapsed Christians’ if they had. They can even be baptised all over again. One lady I know had a full immersion baptism .. in our local swimming pool.
God doesn’t interfere, nor force anyone to do that. They do it for themselves. I love the thought of people coming to God by their own free will choices, but the intensity of their demanding I ‘do it their way’ can be very tiring. Mind you, it does make for some great conversations. Often they have only ‘read’ the bible, but have no real understanding of it .. or only what their ‘preacher’ says it means .. sad but true .. and often very inaccurate.
Love & Peace
Ama
Ama, is it believable ( especially in medicine or other fields of science ) a deceased rises up from his grave in a cemetery in this world and comes back to society and goes back to his office or factory and talk his friend then goes to his home and says to his wife ( if she doesn’t marry for the second time) : ” oh my dear I am very hungry what you have prepared for dinner !?”. Does this odd event happen again without a heavenly exception as the miracle ? Also, why God must revive a dead person again (in this world) while he has made his examination before his first dying ? How a person that had not believed in God previously at all and had been an evildoer and criminal and his soul has been changed into a dark and devilish soul will be revived again and then will become a pious theist in a moment in his second life ? God doesn’t do unreasonable work so why he must revive his evil enemy and change him into a good person while ( for example ) he has murdered a group of humans in his first life !? What will happen to the rights of those slain people while God is the most just judge !? Also when he had been doing evils for years turbulently and some other people had been the good servant of God, what is the difference between this two opposed kind of humans ? Has it right God encounter both equally ?
Wow, Mans! What a great bunch of questions. You are wonderful. 🙂 Where to start?
Dying can change a person profoundly. Do a little research on the subject of ‘Near Death Experiences’, and the people who NDE bring back all sorts of stories about what they saw on the ‘other side’, from heaven to hell. Scientists argue that the people are not really dead, but so very close to it that even modern science cannot detect a sign of life, so that their return to ‘life’ is not a resurrection of any kind, but simply what would have happened anyway (or they would have stayed ‘dead’? I know I’ve read of at least one man who was definitely declared dead, sent to the hospital mortuary, laid there ‘dead’ for about 18 hours (I think), waiting to be autopsied, before waking up in a body bag and scaring the heck out of the mortuary attendants by ‘returning to life’. It still does happen. I think this man came back with a real message about God and heaven? I can’t remember the whole story. It is on the internet.
Then there are the people who die, do not have NDE’s, but still decide to do great things with the rest of their lives, simply because they now understand that life is actually very, very brief. They might still never acknowledge a God, or choose to worship one when they have not done so before. And they can change from good to evil, or visa versa .. its all a choice.
Is this ‘returning to life’ a resurrection of someone by God, or simply our lack of ability to tell the living from the dead? Given the message the first man bought back, maybe it was? Would that make it a miracle to us? How do we define what a miracle is – “something we cannot explain” by natural means.
The story of Lazarus in the Christian bible says that he had been dead three days, and was already rotting, when Jesus told him to rise, and he did. He must have risen a changed person, given he would have needed healing to not be decomposing any more, just to start with. We do not know what he said of heaven, or if he even remembered being dead. It would have been interesting to know, given their belief systems over 2000 years ago.
Should I mention the topic of zombies, who are poisoned by neurotoxins by ‘witchdoctors’, declared dead by their families and buried, only to be dug up and to spend the rest of their life as ‘half alive’, their senses dulled down by the ‘medicine’ their ‘masters’ keep feeding them. There are many stories about people awakening from this state and going back to their families, and getting on with their lives. No God in that event, just primitive medicine used by unscrupulous individuals who love to have slaves.
Mans, are there stories in your society of people who rise from the dead and return to their wives, only to find them married again? The women must remarry very quickly after the husband dies. Where do the men go then?
The assumption that a person who is evil in this lifetime becomes something worse after they die has no basis in fact. It is just a belief. I can just as easily believe that an evil person, having died and gone to heaven, is sent back to this same life to correct his or her mistakes, and that the whole experience of having seen heaven, or hell, or whatever their mind created of either, will change – how could it not change them? They have subjective proof of where we go after we die. How many people would love to know that! If nothing else, it often terrifies them.
I think you are now talking about reincarnation when you say ‘first’ life. Think of it this way. If you were evil and had died, and was given a choice of repaying your evil deeds with good ones in another human lifetime, or being sent into eternal torment in hell, with devils, demons and sharp swords and torture, and lots of fire etc .. what would you choose? Is a person truly born evil, or are they made into that state of being? If God creates each of us, does he create some of us purely evil, and why – does society make us that way?
Now that’s an lot of interesting questions. There are people born today who are psychopaths and sociopaths, who have no emotional connection to any other living person, blood relatives or not. I know a lady like this. She recognises that she is this way but, wanting to fit into society, she studied counselling to ‘learn’ how to respond in normal life and ‘acts’ like she is normal. But she is only acting. If she did something profoundly wrong, (she knows full well she is capable of doing this and ‘chooses’ not to .. and it is a conscious choice, Mans, and often a difficult one since she doesn’t understand the rules of good behaviour that govern most societies), do you think God would punish her for being born ‘evil’. Is she evil? I don’t think so, I think she is, instead, mentally disabled .. but, she is also extremely intelligent.
There is no God in her life because she blames God for how she was born, but was God responsible, or, instead, did she choose to be this way before coming into this lifetime? There are profound lessons about humanity, love, trust, truth and faith to be learned in living ‘outside’ humanity, and she is outside it, although she tries to feel like one of us.
You said: What will happen to the rights of the slain people ..
Karma happens. Lessons in forgiveness and empowerment happen. Love happens. The slain have a choice – they can seek retribution ‘like for like’, in other words, the victim can become the murderer, or they can walk a ‘higher’ path, one based in love and the teachings ‘forgive your enemies’, forgive the person who murdered them or ordered the murder, and move on to another, better, lifetime.
Let’s take Hitler as an example. At Hitler’s command six million Jewish people, and God only knows how many million other people from many other countries around Germany, died before and during the second world war. When he went into heaven you would think he would have gone straight into some form of punishment, but he didn’t. The question then has to be “what do we learn in eternal punishment”? Which raises another question …
Why did God create humanity, Mans? My understanding is that s/he created us to ‘learn and grow’ towards Love, towards God. We are to ‘return to God’ when we die. What does your bible teach you about that? How do we do that if we are trapped in eternal punishment? Or is God actually ‘eternal punishment’, much the way this planet seems to be becoming, and Love is the illusion? But that puts a lie to what Jesus taught us about forgiveness .. what about Muhammad .. he also taught forgivenss. Where do you think our prophets got the concept of forgiveness from .. if not from God? Neither Jesus nor Muhammad returned evil for evil, if they are our teachers about God, then surely God does not return evil for evil either? What is the point of teaching ‘forgive your enemies’, if it doesn’t apply on every level of heaven, including earth.
Back to Hitler. Why bring him up .. because I was one of the group that crossed him, and about a thousand Jewish lost souls, into healing many years ago. I can’t think of a hell any worse than being trapped outside of heaven with the ghosts of the people you have murdered watching over you and making sure you didn’t ‘escape’ from their clutches. When we crossed them into heaven they went willingly, and with much relief, all of them, Hitler included. If he believed he was going to hell, he went willingly … but, God forgives his enemies. Hitler will spend a lot of lifetimes paying for all the deaths he created, and so will the german people who helped him do it. Karma is without conscience .. it rights wrongs.
There are no two kinds of humans. We are all from the same DNA .. the same genetic material, no matter what colour our skin is, our eyes, our natures, our country of origin, and the choices we make in our behaviour. We are all capable of great good, and great evil. God knows this because s/he created us this way. We didn’t take his/her mould and break it and remake ourselves, although scientists are trying to do just that these days. Good and evil are choices, they do not define us, they are what we do.
Reincarnation makes perfect sense to me, because it means that God understands that this imperfect person, me, is capable of making profound mistakes, and needs time to learn from those mistakes.
Let me give you a hypothetical case – not a true one – One lifetime is not enough, if that lifetime ends suddenly after a woman has done something evil, and yet might have repaid that evil with greater good later on. The ‘later on’ might not be in that particular lifetimes, if she was suddenly killed by a car while running away from the scene where she murdered the man who had just raped her. Who has done the greater evil? The man who raped her, or her for murdering him? How many other women had he raped before her, and how many more would he haved harmed in this way after he finished with her? Or would he too have been profoundly changed by being murdered if he suddenly found himself awake in his body again, with memories of hell, or better yet, of Love .. God’s love for all of us. It is a life changing experience to be touched by that Love. You don’t need to be in heaven to have it happen.
Back to the lady .. she is now dead, broken in spirit both by the rape and by her death by car .. is the driver who just killed her, who ran into a pole and killed him/herself, also standing with her, along with the man she murdered, awaiting judgment? And is that driver of the car a paedophile, who enjoys destroying young children’s lives? By ‘judgement’ standards they are all going to hell, for various sorts of eternal punishment – and yet, they might all be victims of experience .. the paedophile was abused as a child, and was caught up in one of those truly nasty memories when he ran the lady down when she ran into the road in front of him/her .. that was an accident, but its still a form of murder. The lady is the victim of rape, and a murderer. The rapist might have been the victim of a paedophile, or born a psychopath .. with no connection to human emotions, just enjoys watching other people suffer at his hands. Where is God in this equation .. they are all victims.
God is Love. God created karma to allow humanity to repay its mistakes, deliberate or not. Hell does not allow people to repay anything. And you are right, Mans, God is not unreasonable. S/he can read our hearts and minds and knows our true motives. He created each of us to be able to become him/her .. but we have to work at it, and we need time, all of us, for none of us is perfect. Reincarnation, multiple lifetimes, gives us that time.
Oh dear, I have run on and on and on .. like I said, great questions, thank you Mans.
Love & Peace
Ama
Dear Ama , at first I excuse that my respond became late. I was in a journey and didn’t access to the computer and internet.Anyhow , sometime in a discussion there are various opinions therefore I am agree with you about existing afterlife but don’t believe in born again because whatever I think don’t find any heavenly reason for it.
That’s ok, Mans, I don’t expect to change your mind. 🙂
Did you mean that you don’t find any supporting texts in the Q’ran for my beliefs, when you wrote ‘I don’t find any heavenly reason for it’?
Love & Peace
Ama
Hello 🙂
This is something I do know about for sure … God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost… I do believe what the Bible has to say.. but, I am always opened minded, because I know that “my way” is not the only way.. I love people.. I love humanity in general… old folks, little children and animals have me wrapped around their finger lol… too many times I have felt the warmth of God wrap around me.. I am not a confessed “christian” at this time.. I was married for 19 yrs to a preacher in the Church of God.. the reason for me saying I am not a christian is because I have some things in my life atm that I feel are blocks that I have created and will not let me be the “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before God” NOT that God requires that of me.. but just my own personal walk that I need to work out… but, Love, Faith and Joy are such powerful words.. and I see them in the flesh every day of my life in my children.. waking up to inhale the sweet breathe of life that God allowed me even tho I disrepect my body with the wrong foods and things.. my choice.. another free will of choosing… you see it is never bent upon the choice of good or evil.. I know.. sounds bad.. it is on the choice of YOU… unique.. greatly gifted and made and formed from nothing… just a little you set out in this big old world.. to add to it with children, doctrins, coaching the soft ball team.. you still make an inpact.. we all leave a trial behind us where ever we go.. and God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Ghost is always there no matter what we choose.. He never leaves.. we sometimes just get a little off course…
Blessings,
Lisa
Hey Lisa,
Lovely answer. How do you feel when you go ‘off course’, and who provides the path you walk .. in this world, not in spirit. LOL I always have this calm sense of peace (and hurry up?) when I’m on track. 🙂 I am very grateful the angels are patience personified. With me, they need to be.
Love & Peace
Ama
” when we mention God, we are talking about the orginator of life”. I think it is the most sensible and understable description of God, although it is not a perfect definition of him. We are alive and it is the most obvious sign that someone is cause of this life.
I agree with you Mans, but many scientists, who prefer to believe we all developed by evoluntion, would argue that its not enough to believe we were ‘created’ .. we have no proof. Well, I am keeping my belief that humanity was created by an entity that is as curious about us as we are about it. I also believe that evolution has played its part in the beings we are today. Why can’t we hold both beliefs .. they complement, not contradict, each other.
Nice to see you. Happy New Year from Australia.
Love & Peace
Ama
Hello Ana
But there are some deep and even opposite differences between these two beliefs. Man haven’t had any evolution but the old men were the less experienced humans. I mean, Adam and Eve were the first humans but they were not difference in the shape of the face and body with nowadays humans. The evolutionists believe, man has changed by the time and even Sigmund Freud founded an absolute materially doctrine that human has been generated from a kind monkey’s race. He claimed, at a point of the time that kind monkey had a genetic mutation and so changed into human trough that evolution. The mistake of this philosopher was a so great wrong in the fact of creation. Whether or not, all the evolutionist think so but may with a little difference. Sorrily the mistake of this group is that,they research about man just through his body and shape ( his physical aspect ) and don’t believe in man’s soul which is a great and mysterious thing and is different with animal’s soul. They even don’t believe in the being as angels, demons and other invisible existence because they are not ascertainable via physic or other techno sciences. The worst belief of materialists is that, they even deny the originator of the universe because he is not visible or touchable by our limbs . Therefore there is a huge gap between these two beliefs. If we believe man has been included the evolution so we have to believe our father Adam has been similar to a roster and Eve similar to a chicken and then they have changed into nowadays shape by the time up to our century. so this two opposite beliefs ( one divinity and another materially ) both are not acceptable beside each other.
Hi Mans,
LOL You are wonderful. I love your comment about Adam being a rooster and Eve being a hen .. do you realise that scientists think that birds are descended from reptlian dinosaurs .. if you do the research you can see the connection quite clearly. Humans are just animals too .. certainly our bodies are .. so why are we separate from evolution?
The big question, for me, is how do we know what Adam and Eve looked like? I know we have pictures of them in various books .. but even books didn’t come into existence until perhaps the 4th century after Jesus’ death, but Adam & Eve’s creation was millions (or thousands) of years ago, and people didn’t do good drawings then (cave drawings). We only know God created them in its image, and even the creator spoke in ‘plural’ (“we created them” .. not “I created them” .. in the Christian bible). We have no idea what God looks likes either .. we assume it looks like us, but how can we truly know? We don’t even know if Adam and Eve really existed .. they certainly didn’t populate the world – one couple could not create all those children from 2 living sons .. “even though they had other children later”. And the creation story is not a Christian story, it has been around for 1000’s of years before they borrowed it.
I agree that seeing humanity only as a body and denying the spirit/soul is just wrong. We are so much more than just our bodies – our true self is our soul, the body is just the vehicle we move around in. There are Christian scientists (not a religion) who are trying to provide things like the ‘weight of the soul’, and measure the spirit .. or ghosts .. and quantum physics is opening up new doors in our understanding of ourselves and the universe .. perhaps one they will open a door and find God .. or Allah .. or whatever name it wants to call itself at that time. I hope so.
I was created by God. I am evolving as we speak. I learn new things, I change my thinking, I change how I do things to try and improve myself (or people go in the opposite direction and do things to harm themselves), I learn to love more and worry less .. I am constantly changing. I am not as healthy as I used to be. Change is a form of evolution. We hope to change for the better. Genetically my children have inherited bits of both me and their father .. my daughter has her father’s hands, my son has my mother’s .. as do I. What we do with our hands also creates our evolution. One hand can act in kindness, feed the new kitten here on my desk, while the other builds a bomb .. well, not my hand in that case, but the kitten does have claws. I am watching her learning and growing as I type. It is our choices that change us. It is those choices that change how we react in the world .. and genetically .. what we have given our children. If we were not changing, Mans, then my daughter would not have inherited her great-great grandmother’s hair, completely frizzy .. while mine is incredibly straight. We cannot deny humanity has changed over time .. just look at the heights of various people in the cultures around the world .. the Japanese are taller, the americans are smaller .. many cultures are getting fatter .. what wil their children inherit from that?
And then I have to wonder at the height of Adam and Eve .. the ancient egyptians were incredibly short, if you go by their sarcophagi .. and yet they are average height in modern times. The Christian bible seems to say they have white skin, but they were born in the middle east (?) so wouldn’t they be browner? Evolution gave us people with white, black, yellow and brown skins .. if we haven’t changed since Adam’s time .. how can that be real?
No, evolution is real. For me, so is creationism .. Humanity was created by God to grow, learn and change .. evolution is change is progress.
Thanks for the comment. You always make me think!
Love & Peace
Ama
(typed around a kitty attack) LOL
Hello Ama
I have to say, you are very respectable for me because of some good attributes that I have realized of you. The best of them are your patience, logic, equity and loving humans. You encounter others politely and kind and this is the sign of your Sophistication, thought and humanity and I enjoy such attributes and manner.
However, If you mean about the evolution, the physical differences between humans or the improvement of thought, experiences, language and ability of writing, I will agree with this doctrine . But If evolutionists opine, human had been another kind existence and then he has been mutated to another being genetically this opinion is deniable. If we refer to the human portraits and writings which has been painted or craved on the rocks or ruined buildings by the old people (from the ancient seasons), we will realize obviously, their shape and anatomy had been similar to the nowadays people accurately. of course there is some difference between ancient men and nowadays men. The ancient men that live in the distant past, were so stranger than modern men physically. Also, their lifetimes were so longer than us. For example, Noah lived about 900 years. Yes these differences were existed but the shape, anatomy and essence ( gens and soul) of human had never been changed by the time because of a thing as evolution
Thank you Mans, that’s a lovely compliment. 🙂
What do we do about Noah! Now, if we believe our bibles are the unerring Word of God (by whatever name) it is possible that he lived for 900 years, as did a few others, so what happened? Did humanity de-evolve .. go backwards in our evolution .. even to the point of only living to about 40 years for a long time (middle ages)? Or was Noah another species of human that finally died out, left the planet, or went to another dimension??? There are many possibilities. Or was the story of Noah a myth from another culture, swept up by the emerging cultures of Christianity and Muslimism (is that the right word?) and used to demonstrate that obedience to God/Allah meant you would be saved from turmoil while God swept the world clean .. the idea of which probably led to the book of Revelation in the New Testament.
There was another species of ‘human’ called Neanderthal that is said to have died out, but they interbred with Homo Sapiens (us) and we can still sees signs of their DNA in people today (large brow ridges, bigger heads etc). In the days of Noah there were Nephilim, which could have been fallen angels, or might have been another species of human, far taller than now (some over 10 feet) .. we have the giant David slew, I believe we have giant skeletons being unearthed over the years .. they are properly developed skeletons, not just abnormal homo sapiens .. and we have the written Word ‘there were giants in those days’. (I call my son a giant .. he’s over 6’9″ tall (2.103 metres). His height is unusual but not in our family, whose men have sometimes been taller again.)
And then there is the space ship described in the bible .. were the very tall, very nasty, folk aliens from another world? Did they breed with humans too? Does that explain why they lived for such a very long time? Did they provide the technology that destroyed civilizations such as Atlantis, Lemuria and Mu .. which are all ‘myths’, or maybe not?
We know that humanity has become more intelligent, just look at our science etc, but we are still as violent and protective as when we were more primitive people. In some ways our egos have not evolved, although people are trying to be more spiritual now.
No, we haven’t changed body shape in the sense we have two legs, two arms, one head etc .. but we (humanity) has developed evolved because of climatic factors (height, bone structure, eye shape .. etc) to suit our environment. Did we begin our lives as monkeys of some kind .. truth is, Mans, we really don’t know. There is a ‘missing link’ in the chain of adaptions between the last quasi human and homo sapien .. but they are close enough to be related somehow. And with our knowledge increasing about DNA, its been proved that humans are not very distant ‘cousins’ from orang-utans (I think its them) or chimpanzees? We might not want to believe we evolved from from a common ancestor that also provided monkeys .. but .. we also don’t know that that wasn’t God’s plan all along anyway. Monkeys don’t write, and humans didn’t write or draw for millions of years .. we have no ‘facts’, and if we base our beliefs in the bible, we only have what other people believed thousands of years ago. And then there are the people who believe that the planet and humanity are only a bit of over 4000 years old and God laid the dinosaur bones in the ground to confuse us??
It’s all utterly fascinating!!
Love & Peace
Ama
Ama, I have heard the theory of Neanderthal, Nephilim, and the missing link of the chin of past human’s life years ago but I don’t get such theories serious. Also I believe not in developed Aliens which somebodies try to show them as a fact in the world.Because I am aware about the history of human’s life indubitably. Against this denying, I have to say, I believe in angels, demons and other supernatural beings; because I know they exist truly.
Well, what is your viewpoint about Adam and Eva? Were they different from us, in shape, anatomy, gen, soul, wisdom and ability of thinking and speaking?